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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 7 2017, 01:20 AM (1,040 Views) | |
| Political Piper | Mar 8 2017, 02:35 AM Post #16 |
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I think this topic opens the door for a whole 'nother argument. So I can't answer the question until we work out the logistics |
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| Daemon Keido | Mar 8 2017, 02:41 AM Post #17 |
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Warmaster of Chaos
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"Existence of God", perhaps? |
A Shadow is merely Darkness in the presence of Light![]() Thanks Kid Buu for this awesome sig! The Emperor Protects | |
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| EMIYA | Mar 8 2017, 03:01 PM Post #18 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Do you realize the contradictory note of your statement here? I don't believe in god I know God chooses friends. Anyways, this question really only boils down to whether you believe in a high power or not and if its effects your friends. Those of us who don't believe in God or some higher force are obviously going to say that this has zero effect on our friendship. I'm not going to act like I'm not a bit irked when someone tries to press religion on another with a statement like the above. It feels like your trying to force your ideology on another like a factual statement. |
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| Dingo | Mar 8 2017, 10:40 PM Post #19 |
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If God is not real then we don't have freewill and therefore don't choose our friends. Freewill doesn't exist without God. Only the illusion of freewill. However, if God is real and gave us freewill then we chooses our friends. If God is real and did not give us freewill then we don't choose our friends. Edited by Dingo, Mar 8 2017, 10:46 PM.
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Wisdom Wisdom Pack
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| SpeedoTrunks | Mar 9 2017, 09:52 AM Post #20 |
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Ok, I'm confused by this. Nobody "gave" human beings freewill, we have it. I don't want to get into the whole "is there a god" because I don't believe that there is, but even if there was, why would that mean that's the only reason we have freewill? Surely by not having freewill, everything would be predetermined and thus there would need to be sombody/something pulling the strings.....like a god(s)? |
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| Agent Dark | Mar 10 2017, 01:34 AM Post #21 |
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If I don't believe in God, how can I know he chooses my friends? I don't believe in God anymore, at least in the religious sense, so my answer to the question would be no. As for the freewill, how can only God give us freewill? We still have it without him. |
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| Dingo | Mar 10 2017, 05:26 AM Post #22 |
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When you roll dice is there someone pulling the strings to determine how it lands? Why do you believe in freewill? 1) Determinism is true. All events are caused. All our actions are therefore pre-determined. There is no free will or moral responsibility. 2) Chance exists. If our actions are caused by chance, we lack control. We can not call that free will because we could not be held morally responsible for random actions. I'll use some words from other people to try and explain. Thomas Pink There are but these two alternatives. Either an action is causally determined. Or, to the extent that it is causally undetermined, its occurrence depends on chance. But chance alone does not constitute freedom. On its own, chance comes to nothing more than randomness. And one thing does seem to be clear. Randomness, the operation of mere chance, clearly excludes control. (Free Will: A Very Short Introduction, Oxford, 2004, p. 16) Peter Lipton First, everything that happens in the world is either determined or not. Second, if everything is determined, there is no free will. For then every action would be fixed by earlier events, indeed events that took place before the actor was born. Third, if on the other hand not everything is determined, then there is no free will either. For in this case any given action is either determined, which is no good, or undetermined. But if what you do is undetermined then you are not controlling it, so it is not an exercise of free will. Finally, we have the conclusion: there is no free will. ("Genetic and generic determinism: a new threat to free will?," in The New Brain Sciences: Perils and Prospects, ed. D. Rees and S. Rose. Cambridge University Press, 2004, pp.89.) Kadri Vihvelin Either determinism is true or it's not. If determinism is true, then my choices are ultimately caused by events and conditions outside my control, so I am not their first cause and therefore...I am neither free nor responsible. If determinism is false, then something that happens inside me (something that I call “my choice” or “my decision”) might be the first event in a causal chain leading to a sequence of body movements that I call “my action”. But since this event is not causally determined, whether or not it happens is a matter of chance or luck. Whether or not it happens has nothing to do with me; it is not under my control any more than an involuntary knee jerk is under my control. Therefore, if determinism is false, I am not the first cause or ultimate source of my choices and...I am neither free nor responsible. (Arguments for Incompatibilism. Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2007) Edited by Dingo, Mar 10 2017, 05:32 AM.
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Wisdom Wisdom Pack
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| SpeedoTrunks | Mar 10 2017, 09:39 AM Post #23 |
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For me personally, I think some people are overthinking if there is free-will or not. I accept the possibility that there either is or isnt, but if not that would suggest "something" or "someone" would have to have a say in my actions, which then suggest god or gods to be involved...which invalidates my non-belief system lol. I personally think there is free-will, but only because the notion of there not being any, and that all life/actions are predetermined would be soul destroying, and thus in my mind at least, there would be little/no point in life at all. Why would I want to life out a (hopefully) 80+ year life, when I know its all predetermined and no matter what I do, I can't change that. |
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| * Mitas | Mar 10 2017, 10:09 AM Post #24 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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Why does it have to suggest the involvement of Gods? If you don't follow any religion, then I assume you believe the universe began randomly. Lack of free will only suggests that everything that happens has unfolded in a particular way from that random event, not that anything was specifically guiding it. Also, can't it be both? We have freewill, but in a world where the chaos of luck/chance/randomness truly reigns. Or does it specifically mean that even your thought process behind choosing an action is determined by things outside of your own control? |
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"Then you've got the chance to do better next time." "Next time?" "Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is." | |
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| SpeedoTrunks | Mar 10 2017, 10:34 AM Post #25 |
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I would only say that "to not have free will", suggests that something else must have control, if only because I believe nothing happens for a reason, at all. As you've said, to me the Universe came into existence by pure chance (the conditions for it where right, but not by choice) and the later formation of the universe, [as I understand it], is due to atoms being slightly flawed, this is why some atoms grouped together to form other elements/planets/stars etc. Again by pure chance, not because it was deemed to be so by something/someone/whatever. As a great man once said: "Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV." That is my thought process on everything. No person/plant/animal/planet/star/anything exist's on purpose, and due to the nature of the formation of the universe and how atoms are flawed to degenerate [IE: not last forever, the reason everything lives/dies], I have no reason to believe my exceedingly short time on this planet , at least in comparison to all of time/space, would require my actions to be pre-planned. And again if they are, why? And as you said, do I think that way, because it was chosen for me to think like that? I hope not. I honestly think if there is a god/gods, who created the universe and all of time/space, their perception of the flow of time would be so vast, that they would blink and miss our entire civilization coming in being and then disappearing into the nothingness of space. If there was a god, why create the universe at all? Just because you could? I don't really want to spend forever explaining it, but I'm not a believer in god or anything of that nature, and the thought of my life being pre-planned for me, is literally the worse thing I could think of. To think I have no say in my life, I would rather no exist at all. Edit: A quick note on the above. I dont want people to think I'm like some angry guy who doesn't value life or anything like that. Due to my above though process on god/existence and everything else, Life/the world/Stars/Planets/The universe literally AMAZE me, because we have so little time to enjoy it all and take it in. I value the time I have with my friends and family, exploring the world/viewing the cosmos, because to me, at some point It'll never happen again Edited by SpeedoTrunks, Mar 10 2017, 10:43 AM.
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| * Mitas | Mar 10 2017, 10:52 AM Post #26 |
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It truly was a Shawshank redemption
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Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but my understanding of the argument is not that it's pre-planned, but that we have no choice in how it unfolds because everything is one big domino effect, down to the smallest of details. Which I guess is essentially the same thing for us as cogs in that system, with the key difference being the former infers something planned it, whereas the latter infers it just...happens. In regards to even our thought processes being determined by things out of our control, even if that is the case, it comes down to what you believe we actually are. Even if everything about us is controlled by exterior forces, we still are whatever that collection of events is. So any choice made is still our own, regardless of whether we had any control in what led to that decision being made, nor in whatever follows it, because we are the thing that made the choice. If that makes sense. |
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"Then you've got the chance to do better next time." "Next time?" "Course. Doing better next time. That's what life is." | |
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| * Yu Narukami | Mar 10 2017, 11:33 AM Post #27 |
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Izanagi!
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We don't have free will in the sense that every single decision we make is influenced, in some manner, by external factors, directly or indirectly. However, we're more than capable of calling what we have right now 'free will' in society, and I think that when people talk of free will, and any potential lack of it, they're referring to more Deity-themed ideas. If you decide to, say, become a veterinarian, you could argue that the choice wasn't the result of free will, but that it was the culmination of many different external factors shaping your views and values, which ended up pushing you into that career choice. However, the deeper you look into this, the more the idea of 'free will' in this sense being impossible. Every single person, without fail, is influenced by external factors, so it's not possible for any sentient being to ever truly have 'free will'. |
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| SpeedoTrunks | Mar 10 2017, 11:42 AM Post #28 |
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Oh yes there is "influence" for sure, although I'm not talking about that, I'm saying "life is not 100% controlled/pre set for us" As an example: if you did decide to become a vet, sure maybe something you've seen/something you've watched placed that idea in your head, but it was your choice to do it/follow through on the idea, and it was pre-destined for you to do this. A good exampel of this is: As a kid, I always wanted to be a firefighter, due to my love of UK kids program "fireman sam". I even joined the fire cadets on that notion when I was 13 years old. By the time I got to 18, I personally had decided it was a terrible idea, as I hate the notion of burning to death. Most likely something contributed towards that idea in my head, but thats venturing into the realm of social/climate influences, rather than "IT IS YOUR DESTINY TO BECOME [whatever]", which is what I'm talking about. THAT, is 100% not a thing. Its it nobodys destiny to do/say anything/be friends with certain people or anything like that. |
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| Daemon Keido | Mar 15 2017, 12:11 AM Post #29 |
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Warmaster of Chaos
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Unless you are playing with loaded dice, no there is not. |
A Shadow is merely Darkness in the presence of Light![]() Thanks Kid Buu for this awesome sig! The Emperor Protects | |
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| Master Gohan | Mar 20 2017, 05:01 AM Post #30 |
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Amen |
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